rmurphey

Big giant hugs. Like I said, I'm so glad you stayed in this industry, we are all better for it.

Rebecca,

I regret that I didn't catch the scholarship "furor" while it was happening or I would have backed you up all the way. My workplace is perhaps better than most, the doods I work with (yes, the developers at Digg are 98% guys) are good guys and respectful of women for the most part, but they (we!, I'm not immune to the desire to fit in, as enlightened as I like to think I am) occasionally engage in sexist "humor" and the choice of bonding activities is more likely to be a first-person shooter on the 30" monitors than something more appealing to the "fairer sex." Is this the end of the world? No. But, it does create an environment that is less inclusive than it could be.

We're all on a journey. It's sad and infuriating at the same time to me to see men speaking about these issues from their blind spots. It takes a lot to admit you're part of a problem like creating a hostile environment for women in the workplace. I admit I've been that guy on occasion. The best we can hope for is that people open their eyes over time and come to view each other through a more varied lens than sex & gender.

This whole thing reminds me of the classic slogan: "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people." (By the way, women can be guilty of diminishing their value as well, especially in tech.) It's time we all, men and women, became better feminists!

[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Rebecca Murphey, Barry Hoggard, Mikeal, Aaron Quint, Joe McCann and others. Joe McCann said: RT @rmurphey: I need to say a few things. http://bit.ly/c1FItr // well done [...]

I completely respect what you've said here Rebecca, although due to genetic constraints I am not able to fully empathise.

I don't quite understand the fixation on quantitative equality in an industry such as ours because, quite simply, computer science appeals less (on an aggregate scale) to women for a reason. I don't think it's as simple as the barriers presented in the industry itself, but rather the stereotypical upbringing of a girl in this technological age. There is inherent inequality in so many of the things we take for granted and fully accept. Anything from wearing a pink dress to being separated from the opposite gender in school. The thing is: there is so much happening in the world that perpetuates the segregation between genders.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: the cause of the inequality/discrimination in this industry cannot be found within the industry itself. It's an external factor that needs to be fought externally and not within the confines of a industry-specific conference.

Frankly, when someone's a jerk to me, I attribute it to their general lack-of-decency and immaturity. I wouldn't think it fair to paint a group with one brush due to a few idiots.

The jerks that you encounter might just be bigoted misogynistic ass-holes. The fact that they're web developers/designers is totally irrelevant, because it's not a causal factor in their lack-of-respect/decency.

This is all just my opinion of course.

I think it's brave of you (any anyone else) to share the persecution that one faces under the unfortunate circumstance of discrimination, -- from any person it requires courage. I hope that my comment hasn't seemed too offensive or patronising -- my opinion is what it is.

And let it be known that I am an animal before I am a human, and a human before I am a man, and so many other things before I am a web developer.

I'm not sure if Chris Williams posted it up on twitter (from a DM conversation), but almost the perfect analogy for the Scholarship thing that Google are doing is: What Google is doing is the exact same thing as what's currently done for students at conferences.

The reason it's done is to encourage new people into the industry. While the students may not cope flack about their gender / physical appearance, they do occasionally get a bit about being a student, and because you're so young you must be a ‘n00b’.

Long of the short, while I can't exactly understand what it's like as a woman in this industry, I can get a fairly good picture of it. At the end of the day, if we don't open the industry up and welcome in both Women and Students alike, then we'll end up suffocating and choking a thriving industry. The industry will become stale because there's a chronic lack of new ideas, directions and perspectives. To add compound, out of all the people I've meet, it's often the Women and the Students who are the most inspiring and have the best ideas for a better web.

— Micheil.

I am really happy to see that people in this community are willing to argue about this issue. This is of course not the only industry with overt or covert sexism...but this industry seems more willing than some to talk about it and argue with each other. For that, I am grateful.

I think the willingness to call each other out is the most important step towards equality. I love it when bigots are arrogant enough to open their mouths and publicly spout their ideas so that we can all hear how ludicrous it sounds. In other industries where professionals act more professionally, I think the problem will last longer because the bigots are less likely to out themselves.

Hear hear! Well said. We all need to work on gender balance in the industry, and on acceptable behaviour (not just for women, but minorities, sexual orientation, etc.). It is a very young and immature (and overly young white priviledged male) industry, so there is a lot of work to be done to improve things.

Thanks for speaking up!

That's terrible to hear about what happened. As a guy I can only image how much that would suck. I think most guys out there are horrified to hear that kind of behavior is in play and would be more than happy to help women change the industry for the better.

And... I deeply appreciate you not asking us to give up the Matrix (truly), but as for StarWars, StarWars can go to hell!

Seriously though, good for you, for not putting up with that BS

Rebecca,

I'm sorry to hear that these things happened to you. The actions of those individuals is reprehensible. I suggest that you report them to the authorities or tell that guy's wife.

You might have noticed that us geek guys are not very good at, you know, interacting with people in general. A friendly reminder that we've crossed a line and made you uncomfortable will usually be enough to make us feel absolutely horrible and full of regret. Body language alone might not be enough for us to pick up on - since we're generally oblivious to such things.

Thank you for your persistence in the face of adversity, you rock.

Making sure everyone's welcome makes everyone better. Is it a little embarrassing that this is an issue? Yup. So what.

Changing an "established order", no matter how thoughtlessly established, is always hard. I wish you success.

Rebecca,

+1 with Chris Eppstein. I am sorry to hear about the events that happened to you. Those behaviors towards you are unacceptable and should be punished.

Rebecca,

Thanks for speaking up. Thanks for being a voice in our community.

I can't tell you how many guys think it's ok, maybe even a compliment, to call us "hot chicks."

What they don't get--the experience they lack--is growing up where all you are judged on is your physical appearance.

I think the men in the tech world who think women should just "get over it" need to shut the fuck up until they take two distinct steps:
1. Read "Reviving Ophelia" COVER TO COVER
2. Walk around, in public, in a skirt, for ONE WEEK.

Then, they can come back, and intelligently discuss what it's like to be judged by your appearance first, and your SELF second.

Rock the fuck on, my friend.

Alexis

Rebecca,

Having read your blog and enjoyed the YahQuery podcast, I'm glad the incidents of the last week haven't silenced you. Having worked as a developer for a lot of years I have to agree, the environment has it's share of jerks. I've certainly been offended and embarrassed, for myself and them, by the behavior and statements over the years. Particularly my younger co-workers, which seems especially odd in the context of this topic. My own daughter is a new Mechanical Engineer and I was keenly aware of the barrier nonsense she had to go through to continue in her education and still has to contend with in her job.

I'm not saying this as a means to shrug my shoulders and say, "Oh well, that's the way it is, what are ya gonna do...", but to say that yes, yes it is crummy. I've worked side by side with women in my career and I've always tried to show the respect and professionalism I hope to receive myself. But that is a small effort that affects a small sphere of people. Sadly, I think it will take out-spoken women like yourself to change the culture and environment, which is why I'm very happy that you haven't been silenced, and if anything, inflamed. As you are doing, stating clearly and consistently what you will and will not accept from your peers in the work that inspires you, change will happen. And we will all be better for it.

Thank you.

I remember the first time I heard you speak, Rebecca. Some asshole heckled you within the first 2 minutes. Man, my blood boiled! You handled it well, and continued with your presentation, but I thought I sensed a flash of deep frustration.

Will scholarships help bring more diversity into our industry? Probably. But will it remove the assholes who use sex as a weapon? Doubtful. There will always be jerks that lash out at others rather than face their own inadequacies.

I do hope, however, that your efforts and the efforts of other brave women succeed.

I'm not sure what else to say that hasn't been said here already -- except that you've got my admiration and my support if ever you need it (or want it).

- J

I have to agree with James here. I don’t understand why a profession should have an equal number of males and females. Being equal for the sake of being equal in this regard is a pointless endeavor. In fact, the equality of race, color, religion, national origin, age, sex, family status, disability, or veteran status is a futile endeavor because choosing a profession contains that factor of choice. To suggest that any sort of discrimination or inequality is occurring there would first have to be the denial of choice. Here in the U.S. there is no denial of choice. Sure, we could discuss social or cultural factors all day long but this still does not change the fact that each individual is given the same choice. And that this choice is made based on subjective matters, not objective matters. Honestly, the only logical solution to this, if we were to even consider making things numerically equal (50% male, 50% female) would be to have the government step in and enforce rules about how an individual chooses a job. And at that point, we’ve lost/limited choice. We’ve removed/traded something for something else. Personally, I’ll stick with an individuals right to choose whatever occupation they want and let the cards fall where they may as it pertains to protected classes.

Additionally, the idea of persuading women to join a profession initiates discrimination in consideration of all of the protected classes. Why are men or women special. What about the other protected classes (race, color, religion, national origin, age, family status, disability, or veteran status). Heck, what about ugly people, short people, or people from idaho.

Equality is rooted in a person’s right to choose what is best for themselves (subjective). Forcing this notion of equal numbers as it pertains to gender is not better in regards to equality its actually worse if the goal is equality. The most equal thing we can do is let everyone choose for themselves. And that is what is done (at least in the US). The system is already working correctly. The fact that a particular gender makes one choice over another choice is simply part of the freedom to do so. In other words, if we get to choose subjectively then yes its possible that 9 people out of 10 might like chocolate ice cream more than vanilla. And if those 9 people happen to be females...it ridiculous to assert that there is an inequality issue because we have only 1 male that does not.

As for the behavior of men. This is a known factor, as not all men are cut from the same cloth. Its horrible what happen to you. But the reality is this is not unique to a profession. What you have describe is a symptom of human nature. I’d like to suggest that the world you describe is not the entire story. In the world in which you are speaking I know of men who believe/practice morality, equality, character, kindness, and most of all love. These men love in a manner that treats others more important than oneself. These men speak respectfully and appropriately to all people. These men honor there wives as well as women in speech and action. They follow the golden rule. These men are attending the same conferences you are attending (as we’ve both attended that same conferences I’ve personally meet these men). I promise if you take a good look, you’ll find them. In the jQuery community they are plentiful.

As for the man who treated you in such a manner. I can only offer a sincere apology on the behalf of individuals who subscribe to a higher morality.

"But for the love of all that is good: this being a woman in your world thing, it’s not easy, OK?"

I am struggling to see the difficulty. I have been a woman in 'their' world for over 8 years now and have had countless 'sexist' remarks (I call them jokes but perhaps I am too laid back) and men hitting on me in shocking ways but that's life in general. I do not blame it on the industry or anyone/anything for that matter.

My own father said to me recently (and he's not the first person to do so), while struggling to find work and being dead serious "How do you get so much work?.. it must be because you're a young, attractive female". It made me laugh.

It amuses me that people are so ignorant/jealous sometimes that they don't think maybe you got where you are because you're skilled. However, it certainly does not upset/anger me that they think that way. I know that I have the skills and I work hard to make sure that I do. Let them think what they want, who cares? I have nothing to prove to them. If anything, it pushes me harder to learn more and improve so maybe I should be thanking them!

And yes, women aren't as likely to shout "me me me" (me included) but you have to (to a certain extent) if you want to be known in this world. We can't just sit back and expect recognition. You have to market yourself, show belief in yourself and create amazing things otherwise you will get nowhere. Unfortunately, there aren't many women doing much of the above, or doing it well at least.

That said, I'm sure there are plenty of women out there, they're just keeping quiet and there is nothing wrong with that. Maybe they prefer it that way.

I wish us women would stop victimising ourselves and just move on. Really I do.

Whoa, that is pretty disgusting... but remember: a few bad apples don't make the whole basket rotten.

I'm with Mr Eppstein on this: a lot of geeks have no clue what so ever on how to act in a social setting and how to adapt their comments to the audience. I too am guilty of this, but I hope not to such a degree. This isn't a justification, merely an explanation.

The pendulum swings both ways though, in this business it might be women, but in others it's the other way around. I have friends that completely gave up on their industry of choice, just because they couldn't find a job, being male...

And the thing that really annoys me is the constant "omg a woman in tech!" being shouted by women... As long as you keep considering it abnormal, it will remain abnormal. There's this quote that sorta applies here imho, but I can't remember the exact wording, it basically comes down to "A new technology is only special until it becomes ubiquitous.", which could be interpreted as "X will only become ubiquitous when it ceases to be special."... I think.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure you are a true asset in whatever industry, I can only be happy you're in the same industry as I am. :P

Cody Lindley says, "Sure, we could discuss social or cultural factors all day long but this still does not change the fact that each individual is given the same choice."

Oh, gosh, I wish that were true. But in all truthfulness, the many wonderful men in my industry were NOT given the choice to enter a computer field where the technical work gives them a keen sense of satisfaction but they can be guaranteed that not a year -- and in some jobs, not a week -- will go by without having someone question their fitness for their employment simply on the base of their gender. They're not given the choice of finding jokes against their sex in technical manuals. They're not given the choice of being asked whose partner/spouse they are at technical conferences.

And, while I love the field enough to stay in it, I haven't so far been given the choice to work in the field without those constant irritations. You can help women in technology have that choice, by recognizing that what women in technology are complaining about isn't just an occasional bad apple, but an experience of pervasive sexism. You can also help by choosing not to minimize the difficulty of being on the receiving end of pervasive sexism.

James & Cody, you're arguing against a strawman. No one (that I know of) is arguing for exact 50-50 representation of men and women in the field. But, when the number of women is ~10% and dropping, unlike every other science and engineering discipline, don't you see how just maybe that suggests a problem? Computers are becoming more and more ubiquitous in our society and, yet, _fewer_ women are going into the field. Something's not right with that picture. And, yes, _of course_ some of the reason is outside the industry. But some of it really is within the industry. So maybe we work on both?

Re the "few bad apples" argument:

Assuming that these guys did not set out that morning to be an asshole (to be fair, those people exist too), somehow they thought their behaviors were OK. Whether you, as an individual, are one of these jerks is beside the point. I strongly believe it is in the community's interest to make clear these behaviors are not, in fact OK.

I'm really glad to see so many positive comments. There are just a few individuals who seem to seek to invalidate Rebecca and other womens' truth telling on this topic. To them I would say this:

It is easy to arrive at conclusions that feel true when they are based on our own background, upbringing and personal experiences. However, different people have different backgrounds and different lives and the truth for them is not necessarily the same as our own. It doesn't make their way, their observed obstacles or their pain invalid.

The most productive goal for all those who care is to listen to each other and try and have empathy for those around us. Realize that their experiences are also true.

Sorry to crash the back-patting party but this was just an emotion-baiting digression. Almost no reference to what sparked the brouhaha - the discriminatory affirmative action-like "scholarships" - other than "I take no position on the scholarships" and "lawyers can tell you whether they’re illegal." What we have instead is an (apparently successful) attempt to elicit sympathy with tear-bringing anecdotes about men who act like pigs or 12-yo boys. As if the guy who sent the oh-so-non-PC tweet has similar habits or tendencies. although the reaction from the host and most sympathizers seems as if they actually think he does.

Best part of the drivel: "If Google wants to pay them a measly few hundred bucks to put up with it, maybe that’s OK." Bribing women to put up with an unpleasant experience... now where have I heard this before ?

Sorry, this gets no empathy and no respect from me. I reserve those for the women with the decency to go to conference on their own dime instead of pushing for corporate charity and affirmative action quotas.

@Kevin - I am aware of people asserting this directly and indirectly. So, nostraw man. Regardless its part of the issue at large. But, honestly I don't think that is a major point here. I just wanted to address it to get it out of the way. And no, if a field is 90% men and 10% women this does not suggest a problem if the individuals were given the right to chose there own profession. I'm not sure why percentages matter. Some like blue others like red. Why given the subjective choice in front of us would we deduct a problem if the majority liked red.

@Kathleen - Interesting phrasing, does not change the fact that you freely have chosen the profession you work in and this is based on subjective rational not objective.

To be clear, I believe that Rebecca has identified a real issue (which is her point). I just don't believe this is an issue specific to our profession. Or, even specifically to men. And no, Rebecca did not assert that it was. And, I am not saying that she did.

I believe the issue is more closely related to morality, society, and human nature. Pick 10 men at random, place them on an island with one women and bad things will occur. Pick 10 women at random, place them on an island with one man. Bad things (different things) still happen. The common factor is the human being not the gender. Sexism is only one type of discrimination, I'm not exactly sure why its the current focus. Yes sexism is bad. But I believe its a condition of our nature not a profession. You want less sexism .. don't address the symptoms for a fix, address the cause. And the cause is the morality of an individual not there chosen profession or gender. At any rate I really view Rebecca's message as this. Hey...these things do happen...and she is her to confirm that they do. And, if you that guy...stop it! Pretty simple!

Rebecca, I just wanted to say that you're a badass. Thank you for writing this post. I'm tremendously sorry to hear about the bullshit you've put up with in being a part of this industry, but thank you for sticking with it. I hope you don't check the impulse to encourage other women to do the same. You're an excellent role model and ambassador, perhaps even more so because you didn't let some drunk d-bag change your mind about the good things in this industry or drive you to abdicate a position you're in because you earned it.

Thanks Rebecca!
It's great to know that my experiences in the industry are not isolated.
There's a great deal of comfort in knowing that many of our experiences are shared. Ultimately that we are not alone.

I've worked as a manager with web development companies Simplisite Business Solutions & Red Tiki for 8 years. I am the only woman in my company & always have been. I think it's hard for men to understand how we as women get objectified because it just doesn't happen to them.

Even when I meet someone new be it a client, colleague or assocaite they may say something like "You look beautiful" or "Don't you look gorgeous today" which I understand they mean as a compliment but I find it irritating that I'm being judged on my physical appearance rather than my professional expertise. That never happens to my males counterparts.

But such is life!

We are different (men & women) & wouldn't it be exceedingly boring if we were all the same?

@Justin - Well said. Thank you. My thoughts entirely.

@Alicia Weller - This is exactly the point. Not all women feel the same way as Rebecca so although I am not claiming how she feels is invalid, I certainly do not agree that it is valid for all women. That's Rebeccas experience and if she has a problem with it then she can follow the correct legal channels to resolve it. Please do not blame it on the industry, generalise how women feel in this industry or how men behave in this industry.

The last thing I want is for male colleagues to worry about what is safe to say/do around me. In a male dominated field, it'd be pretty lonely if we alienated them.

I'm a male, spent 10 years in the videogames industry and enjoyed working at the technological coal face. I'm also guilty of flirting with female colleagues, being "nicer" than I am to male colleagues. It's not that I'm interested in other women (I'm married), it's an unconscious social default. I'm not proud of it, just being honest.
Then I had a daughter - and I became profoundly aware of the her plight. She's bright, inquisitive, roars like a lion, but is most likely doomed to be measured by her looks and capacity to play second fiddle to her man. As of her birth - my perspective has changed, and I only hope that I can somehow play some part in levelling the playing field for her.
It's a tough call, on the one hand - singling women out for special attention to redress inequality is an oxymoron - but without it, women will have to work twice as hard as their male counterparts, and work alone in a predominantly male environment - prepping the way for some decades distant future when the demographic of technology staffing becomes more balanced.
Great article

Firstly, I would love the development community to be balanced between the genders, but let's cut to the chase here. It's not going to happen.

I used to work for a bank who tried to socially engineer a 50/50 gender split but they failed and gave up. They went to girls schools and spent much time and money encouraging women into IT. But when they stopped coercing started questioning girls on the subject, they discovered that girls coming out of school (and uni) generally didn't want to become software developers. Not because of any perceived bad attitudes from men in the industry, but because the job itself didn't appeal to them.

In my experience, girls who choose our industry, like @Jenna above, are well respected. She's one of the most interesting technologists I've followed on Twitter, and I like the fact that her real passion is for technology, not for stirring up gender debates.

I suspect that those girls who complain about our industry are a vocal minority who probably should never have chosen it in the first place because it's not where their passion lies.

[...] first I thought very little of it but after seeing Nicole Sullivan’s and then Murphey’s more in-depth posts, I followed through to the rest of the [...]

Rebecca, I'll be 50 this year. I'm the only woman of my age at most tech events I attend, and I've worked in other male-dominated environments all of my life.

I think it's great that when men grope you at networking events or try to force their way into your hotel room you know this isn't in linked to anything you've done. It's just a consequence of women still being an unquantifiable mystery in some situations where work gets done and connections are formed. As your circle of connections grows over time I'm sure this will happen less.

I also think it's fantastic that you reach out to and encourage other women - ultimately, this is good for both you and them. It's always good to give back.

"The last thing I want is for male colleagues to worry about what is safe to say/do around me. In a male dominated field, it’d be pretty lonely if we alienated them."

@Jenna Smith - I hear you. That point is really important for people to understand. I suspect many women who are laid back about the sexism they encounter also feel concern about alienating men whether or not they are consciously aware of it. A concern about alienating the majority in your community when you are a minority is a really understandable fear.

I didn't actually hear Rebecca blame the industry for these issues. We all know this runs much deeper than any industry. However, that doesn't mean we need to give up hope that things can be better if we are willing to be open and honest about our experiences. There have already been tons of awesome men who have shown support for getting these things in the open. The topic here is not to assign blame. The point it to give a little insight on what it feels like for many to be objectified and party to inappropriate workplace conversations. Those individuals who are well intentioned do find this insight helpful.

1) Women have the "privilige" to choose and to say no
2) Men have the "duty" to ask
3) If both comes together, well, there might be reproduction.

At least that's the way it works for the last couple of million years and that's why we're here, probably except those aliens that obviously exist in IT business.

Now there is another important fact:

4) Some people are idiots.

So, as long as that basic man-approaches-women-selects-behaviour, handed over to us from the apes, and deeply rooted in our genes, does not change, there are two corrolaries:

A) There will be always men who do the approaching part plain wrong or do not understand a "no".
B) Women will have to live with those idiots. Sorry for that, girls, but you can't kill them all, even if you feel like. There are way too many of them.

In other words: Dumb idiots like the guy you had to deal with on the conference exist everywhere. The same could have happened on a conference of doctors, historians, social workers, theater makers or penguin specialists. There are no more idiots amongst us IT guys then amongst the rest of the male population.

Uli

Wow,

First of all are you promoting the idea of a prostitution?

There is definitely some movement on social norms needed, but I don't think they are gender or industry based.

I have been approached by women at conferences. I don't think the specific problem is based on you being objectified, but that a "what happens in vegas" mentality is allowed to exist. Not everyone goes for it, but some do. Its always awkward when the two groups meet.

I am generally considerate enough to keep the 'disgusting' conversations to a minimum with my friends here, but I have walked by a group of women saying things much more disgusting.

Maybe it is worse in an (this) industry that has people working long hours. Based on a quick glance around the office there are lots of couples here, and more that the couple met here but one moved on.

Have you ever had the experience where you create something really cool, or you figure out a solution to a problem that has been bugging you for a week and when you tell your wife/husband/etc you get a completely blank stare. I can't blame people for trying to meet people that have the same interests they have. I can blame them for being d-bags, but that isn't industry specific.

I can't begin to understand this situation from your viewpoint.

This industry is highly competitive, and typically has a very analytical mindset. As a result we typically call each other out on our bullshit and mistakes. Does this create best friends? Nope. Do we feel stupid and humiliated when we get called out? yup. Is it personal? It sure seems like it is, but it isn't.

Would trophy's for everyone on the team help? Nope.

If you came and worked for me yes I would attempt to judge to see if you were qualified to do the work. Just as I would for anyone. Having just finished this morning writing a VI (FTP and SCP too!) tutorial for someone to be able to do part of my job that I am no longer allowed to do, I feel very resentful towards people who I feel are useless. I resent the guy on my team who always commits code that breaks the build. I resent the guy who always uses some random naming convention.

So yeah, I will judge you to see if you can hack it. But it isn't because you are a woman.

But you wouldn't have gotten where you are if you couldn't hack it.

I am sure Leah Culver is smart too, hell she is doing crap loads better than me, yet I remember reading a post by her a while back (quick search didn't find it) in which she needed help with rounding numbers using strings or something. Did she deserve the crap she got? maybe, maybe not. Have I run into dumber things? yup.

Would a man have been crapped on as bad for something like that? definitely.

All in all I'm sorry that you have experienced those disgusting situations. Do i think google is right for giving out scholarships/bursaries. yes. Should it maybe be widened to include those that don't have the means to get there on their own for whatever reason? I think so, but they can spend their money however they want.

As a white male I generally have enough opportunities automatically, but it feels terrible when you get shafted based on something you can't change. It feels terrible when the local university gives out 2 free-ride scholarships to each HS but having the second best GPA in the school isn't good enough because the one person better than you is also male.

Of course that sort of behaviour is not OK. Not in this industry, not in any industry. It would seriously compromise diversity, and diversity can only be beneficial to the industry. The more (different types of) eyes, the faster innovation goes, no?

The "bad apples" thing wasn't by far an argument against your point, I'm just saying be careful you don't start generalizing, because then you're not much better than they are. And I'm not saying you are generalizing, just be careful.

I'm a pretty shy and introvert guy, but if I were to see something like that happen, even if it is to a woman I totally don't know personally, I would seriously have to refrain myself from confronting the guy, even if he is twice my size. Because if you don't, it's pretty much the same as saying "it's OK, go ahead".

I was out with a couple of friends a few weeks back, and this big, scary, black guy slapped one of the women in our gang on the ass. None of us noticed, and I was so pissed she only mentioned it after we left, after there was no chance of confronting the guy about it anymore. Seriously, when fucked up shit like that happens, you need to call it out, preferably really loud in a big crowd, you'll see him being reduced to a pathetic pile of retardation. And you seriously shouldn't be afraid of doing so, you'd be surprised of how many people, whom you don't even know, will instantly back you up.

Rebecca, I was linked to your page and couldn't resist commenting.

I've seen you talk both at the triangle Refresh and at a day jQuery conference, and I have to say I really admire you. Not because you're a competent female technologist, though you certainly deserve props for that too, but because you put yourself out there.

I find that the only way I can continue loving what I do is to remain as isolated as possible. I have a great web app development job with respectful colleagues with whom I really enjoy working. I quit Twitter as soon as it grew beyond a tool to bounce thoughts off your immediate circle, I refuse to publicly blog about technology, and I go out of my way to avoid being the only girl at the conference/user group/whatever. I don't network like I might because of the price tag I am not willing to pay -- the more visible you are in this industry, the more you can expect this kind of piggish behavior.

It shouldn't be that way, and I am not proud of admitting that the way I deal with our shared problem is to refuse to engage in the struggle. This is the source of my admiration for you, and while predictably, this is the kind of thread that I would ignore in the interest of not getting pissed off, I felt like at least that much should be said. Seeing you talk has made me think twice about being more engaged in the community, and I'm sure the number of women who silently root for you is larger than you know.

Unfortunately, this thread does an excellent job of highlighting how deeply rooted this problem is in our field. It's really disappointing to read so many men claiming that they understand what it's like to be a woman in technology. Unless the shrinking numbers of women in computer-related fields can be attributed to massive amounts of gender-reassignment surgery by disgruntled women desperate to be treated like their male counterparts, this is a logical contradiction.

Luckily for all, truly understanding the problem is not necessary for being sensitive to the problem. We all have our personal struggles and frustrations; contrary to some assertions by previous posters, most of us are not looking for any kind of special treatment. What we do seek is this: a baseline of professional respect. Assuming that that a person's struggles are so simple as to have an obvious solution is pretty much the opposite of that.

I've been through a hell during the past six months, which is when I started mixing in the tech community. Although I've been working in the field for 20 years but usually did things alone. I've learned SO MUCH SO FAST by interacting but I've also encountered horrible sexist and unethical behaviour. What shocks me more is that these things are common knowledge but no one tells these fuckers to stop it. And when I try to discuss it, hoping someone might try to kick some sense into all these people, I hear, "it's none of my business."

This hasn't happened just once. Or twice. And i did have an actual relationship with one of these jerks, who misrepresented facts -- yeah, these things happen But this is crazy! All of the guys? I'm from the rock world & even there, people behaved better. One of the guys & I discussed it, and he learned from it, changed his behaviour. There are women developers pulling this crap, too.

I'm worried about this industry. If Zeldman, Meyer, Resig, etc speak out maybe people will listen. I've been harping on this and become a magnet for young, idealistic folks -- even asked to be on an ethics panel.

I typed this on my iPhone. I hope it makes sense.

All i have to say is...

*high-five*

Thank you very much for being so open and speaking for many who can‘t.

I'm kinda wondering if this is a cultural thing. Where I come from (Denmark) I haven't seen anything remotely like this. Sure, I haven't been in that many companies or to that many conferences, but when/where I've been there hasn't been anything even remotely like described.

That's obviously not to say that bad things are not happening, but as I cannot easily recognize the picture painted I'm wondering if this is mainly a US thing. If that's the case, I would be more interested in why the culture+industry mix creates such a bad work-environment (or, alternatively, attracts such an amount of idiots) there as opposed to other places instead of trying to pin everything on "the industry".

@Kathleen:
"But in all truthfulness, the many wonderful men in my industry were NOT given the choice to enter a computer field where the technical work gives them a keen sense of satisfaction but they can be guaranteed that not a year — and in some jobs, not a week — will go by without having someone question their fitness for their employment simply on the base of their gender."

In Denmark, if you're a guy working with daycare, the lynchmob will knock at your door first if anybody as much as thinks "pedophilia". No, it's not just women that have their skills/job-fitness questioned. It would be a great thing if we could look past the industry to the more fundamental problem of how to achieve recognition and acceptance of each other as equals, whatever the industry. Otherwise we're fighting symptoms, not the actual cause.

@Ella:
" I think it’s hard for men to understand how we as women get objectified because it just doesn’t happen to them."

Right, because it doesn't happen in women-dominated industries, at all, anywhere? This isn't a problem limited to IT and it's not a problem only for women - in more than one way: the fact that there *is* a problem is as much something to work on for men as for women - it is first and foremost a problem for society, something that everyone needs to work on fixing.

it was very interesting to read blog.rebeccamurphey.com
I want to quote your post in my blog. It can?
And you et an account on Twitter?

[...] I need to say a few things. | blog.rebeccamurphey.com more on women in technology [...]

For what it's worth, I found your website several months ago and I found an absolutely brilliant article on it and I subscribed instantly. I thought "wow, this person is saying *exactly* what I need to hear/learn about jQuery". My point is, I look up to you as an inspiration, and I'm grateful that you share your knowledge. There are those of us out there who aren't pigs, and find you a real inspiration! Keep us in mind, as we hold you in high regard!

wow, i'm more than a little bit embarrassed to be male. rmurphy paints a picture of the pain caused by more than a little social cluelessness (to understate it)

as someone who finds the boys club of engineering a bit weird, some of us men do find it frustrating that its so hard to change.

if this was a code problem everyone would be scrambling past each other for an ideal solution. but its a social problem and, well, we're just not as conscious of those as we should be.

While I condemn aggressive and pushy behavior, I think the perspective is a little biased by the fact that the social behavior on the IT industry can be a bit different than in others industries. Read introverted.

If you have friends or family who have been working as stewardess, receptionist, waitress, bartender or such the story in your article is an absolute joke to them given what they are facing constantly and they have learned to anticipate or control this over time if not during their teen years for some of them.

As a guy working in IT myself, I have never seen a woman in IT discriminated due to her gender, quite the contrary, guys tend to be very supportive to women on a general basis and they forgive way more compared to a guy. Personally I appreciate the fact that just having a woman in a meeting can be enough to change the way males behave. Like everywhere there could be exceptions, I have heard of some but never ever encountered anyone who suffered from it.

I find women complaining about sexual behavior of their male colleagues often to not realize really what is going on the opposite way. To mention only a few events, in the last couple of years:

- In a recent business trip, I was at a bar talking to a woman and her friend I just met there, and after 2 drinks, the one I was talking to, leaned on me, kissed me and she asked me to take her to my hotel room. That was some serious direct approach.

- I was asked out more than by one of my (female) senior manager. I refused to get into this as I know fairly well the consequences that it can have in the workplace but nonetheless we remained good friends and had good relation through our time in the company, but she sure was insistant...and very friendly.

- I was asked by a female colleague working in another department literally, to 'come to my place this week end, I want you to f* me'.

- A colleague sent out a naked picture of herself to several people (incidentally males) in the company, supposedly by accident, but in any case some of us were left in shock following that, as it wasn't really a pretty sight.

I have more stories in the workplace, but nonetheless, in all these cases above, the gender situation would have been reversed, it would have created all sort of screams, disgust, and what not about males being some kind of perverts and objectifying women.

While I enjoy a bit of attention, I get also disgusted by women I consider as 'gross', and certainly do not follow all offers, even if they are done by attractive women (I may sometimes regret it much later but that's another story).

On the other hand, I certainly do not consider women that are direct as sl*ts or perverts or anything negative. They are entitled to express themselves too and this does not really bother me most of the time.

Also, I would certainly *never* confront someone publicly like a poster mentioned, there is no reason to do so, and I personally think it could make things much much worse in a very insidious way. Human nature is such that being humiliated publicly can really reveal the worse traits of the human nature, and you never know where this can lead.

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